Saturday, December 23, 2023

Are Our Prohibited Conversations Multiplying?


Does it seem that our list of things we are not supposed to talk about is growing ever longer?

I raise this for a few reasons I will explain in a moment. . . not because this is the season, that with the holiday dinners starting with Thanksgiving we get the inevitable advice columns about what to do when, as extended family members are brought together, our viewpoints clash.  (These articles posit that some of your uncles might just be a little `crazy’ when it comes to things you don’t really need to talk about.)

Here’s one reason I’ve been thinking about what we are not supposed to talk about.  The other day I went into Manhattan to participate in a demonstration.  Arriving early, it wasn’t immediately apparent where things were going to be, so I started walking around looking.  A veteran of quite a few demonstrations, my eagle eye caught a large bag– with the sides of collected foam boards peaking up out of it.  It just had to be full of placards.

“Is that for a demonstration?”
I asked the fellow standing beside it.

“Yes.” he said, “BUT, it’s a demonstration for . . . .”  Mentioning the demonstration.

“That’s the demonstration I’m looking for,” I said, “do you know where it’s going to be?”

“I’m not sure.  They might be assembling over there,”
he said indicating the block across the street.                

“When you told me what the demonstration was for, why did you say ‘BUT’?” I asked.

“Because you are wearing that. .  button,”
was his response.  He actually said what kind of button I was wearing that he referred to, but because I want to discuss the principle here, I want to keep this abstract.  He said that I must therefore be some kind of . . . The things he mentioned, I actually am not.  I’m not even truly conversant with the details of what he might have been envisioning or why it would be viewed as incompatible by him.

“Actually,”
I started to tell him why the button I was wearing might actually mean, not surprisingly, that showing up for the same demonstration, we might both of us be, at least mostly, or very much, on the same page about the important reasons why we both showing up. . .

. . . I didn’t get very far. . .

“Don’t talk to me!” he said.

“If you’re here to win people over,”
I said, “you should want to reach out to people.”

“Stop talking to me!”  He said.

“You’re putting yourself in a bubble, if you’re not willing to have conversations with people,” I said.

He covered his ears.  “If you keep talking to me, I’m going to scream,” he said.

I couldn’t believe it.  Everything I was saying I was saying in a quiet, calm and polite voice.  “This is not the way to reach out to people and win them over,” I said.

It didn’t work.  His ears still covered with both hands, the fellow started screaming, “Stop talking to me!  Stop talking to me!” He screamed over and over again and he started walking around in circles.  It was not a normal scream, but an exceptionally loud and full scream that I figured could probably be heard for at least the length of the block or more.

There was nothing more to do.  I slowly ambled away, shaking my head as I headed in the “probable” direction that the demonstration might form.  As I did, I wondered what the woman who had been standing with this gentleman thought.  Leaning against a building, she had remained impassive throughout our exchange.

Our numbers quickly grew to a pretty good sized and easy to find demonstration.  Presumably lost somewhere in the crowd, I never noticed the fellow again.

It’s worthwhile to note that we were there for a cause that, far from being universally popular in this bleeding and forsaken world, sorely needs more converts to be effective in its aims.

So I ask this: Have we lost the ability to talk with one another?  Are certain topics, an increasing number of them, off limits to more and more people?  I wonder.  It’s not just topics that are off limits; it’s also who we are not supposed to talk to, or who we are not allowed to talk to.  We’ve got a superfluity of categorizations of individuals related to setting up these limitations.

It’s worse than that: Now sometimes the people we are not supposed to are people we shouldn’t talk to, because those people have, in turn, already talked to somebody that they weren’t supposed to talk to.  We seem to be training ourselves to watch out for disqualifying “associations.” “Guilt by association,” is becoming a quick and ready time saving substitute for disqualifying who we can talk to as opposed to bothering to verify that their “beliefs” are actually dangerously at odds with our own.–   And more and more, for other’s people’s beliefs not to be dangerous to own, the people we are willing to talk to have to believe almost everything we believe, rather than just some or most of the things we ourselves believe.    

If you are surprised at my harangue, here’s more about this that has fixated me in this wondering.  At roughly the same time I went to that demonstration, I went to a “Town Hall” discussion about “Free Speech and Censorship,” instigated by journalist Matt Taibbi who is researching and writing about the subject.  In a provocative mood, he was looking for advocates of censorship to discuss the topic with.  He got some of the action he sought.  The Town Hall was in Park Slope’s beautiful old Montauk Club.

Taibbi has been directing his attention to copious documentation showing the United States government’s coordination with social media companies to achieve the censorship (in various ways) of information and viewpoints that the government doesn’t like.  This includes censoring information and facts that are true but that the government doesn’t like because of the potential influence such true information and facts might have on people.

Some of what has been subject to this kind of coordinated censorship involves quashing what should be considered political speech.  Again, in order to stick with a focus on principle, I don’t want to get very specific about the appreciable list of topics this coordination was censoring, but suffice it first to say that, as can be readily guessed, the documentation shows that among things, the government doesn’t like is speech that is critical of the wars and military actions that the United States is engaged in or backing.

Oh, and once again without being specific, that struggling cause we demonstrated for where the fellow covered his ears and screamed “Stop talking to me”? . . . .  Promotion of that very same cause is one of the things our government and the social media companies are censoring strenuously.

For purposes of all these coordinations, there are theoretically good points of view and bad beliefs, good guys, and bad guys.        

Taibbi began his Town Hall by referring back to 1989, when, in August, Milt Ahlerich of the FBI sent a letter to a small independent record label, Los Angeles's Priority Records setting forth a warning criticism of its distribution of the “Straight Outta Compton” album’s hip hop song, “Fuck tha Police.”  The letter unacceptable to the FBI the lyrics protesting police brutality and racial profiling.  Taibbi noted that, in 1989, this effort at government suppression of speech sparked outrage and that it was widely covered in the liberal media at the time.  Then he noted that the government’s coordination to silence points of view it opposes are currently magnitudes greater, the same thing occurring regularly on an ongoing basis, thousands of times over.  (Protest of police brutality and racial profiling is more acceptable since 1989, although maybe not to the FBI.  It is still targeted for social media censorship.)
            
Taibbi noted that a vast number of people who consider themselves “liberals,” no longer seem to care, and have abandoned the notion that protecting free speech is still important.  One might want to point out that the cause of free speech has been adopted by many on “the right,” except that, in an unprincipled way, when it is speech they don’t like, many on the right are insufficiently antiauthoritarian, and similarly promote censorship.

Clearly, with some self selection, there were many in the Town Hall audience that night who sympathetically following along with the points Taibbi was making, but, there were also contrary views expressed.  It was suggested that the public may need protection from hearing some kinds of information.  There was the notion that when the government has determined that it’s needful for the public to think certain things or get behind certain actions it can be good to suppress true information if that true information may possibly interfere with manipulations to get the public in line.  There was also the idea that the government and social media companies need to be on guard to protect sensitive segments of the population, probably mostly minority segments, about whom hateful, critical or perhaps even politically incorrect things might be said.

Again, since I want to stick with thinking of these things in terms of principles, I want to steer clear of the specific suppressions and reason for them that were advocated to be condoned. . .

 . . . However, we can note that with changes of fashion, and updates that have been urged for societal mores, some in attendance at the Montauk Club that evening hoped for regulating the social media companies into versions of political correctness that could ban lots of communications that used to be (so thoughtlessly?) commonplace in our very recent past.

Midway through the evening, there was a fellow expressing a number of these views about how and why speech should be regulated.  Maybe he was not for real?  Maybe he was a theatrical student trying out a performance on us?  After he expressed a number of these views, he said he was going to produce “a wail” for all the poor creatures who would be hurt and injured and maybe die, if they were not protected by a regulated internet.  Then he began to produce the wail.  Loud, it lasted for maybe the better part of a minute. He had good breath control. I thought of the fellow at the demonstration covering his ears.  Then our wailer abruptly picked up and left the meeting, leaving behind a scribbled manifesto of his beliefs.   

The strongest thing said in favor censorship during the evening was the idea that the internet has changed everything, that we are no longer the same people we were before the internet, that, now, with the internet, everything is out of control in a way that makes free speech threatening in a way that it has never been threatening before.  To me, rather than a brand new argument, this sounds like an age old argument, the age old argument that “free speech” is generally good, EXCEPT. . .  EXCEPT, EXCEPT– Except for this war, except for that emergency, except for fighting communism, etc.

And I am reminded who brought us the internet.  It came out of the DARPA and the military.  It may be that those who brought us the internet have always been ahead of the rest of us in many respects regarding its uses.  Surveillance is certainly one of them.

The internet has been the great disruptor.  And as is the case with a great many rapid disruptions, much as the example disaster capitalism often furnishes, the seeming chaos of abrupt change reliably gets seized upon and taken advantage of by the power elite who are always alert as to how to amplify their interests.

Is it possible that internet, or no internet, the real answers to what is right, wrong, or best for free speech are really still, basically the same as they’ve always been?. . That we are basically the same human beings we have always been . . .

. .  Or do we really suddenly have a world with which we can no longer cope?

Have I given you enough explanation for why I am wondering about how verboten topics seem to have multiplied?

I’ll give you another reason I am thinking about this. . .

. .  Someone senior up in the leadership of the church congregation to which I have long belonged disclosed to me recently that the leadership of the congregation has concluded that the congregation membership is `not very good at handling conflict.’  Therefore potentially conflict-inducing subjects, difficult topics, need to be avoided.  I won’t say who in the leadership told me this.  I won’t specify which congregation.  The latter is probably easy to look up anyway.  Does it matter?  I’ll wager this kind of assessment may be commonplace in  congregations these days. – Some of the thinking seems to be that this helps the congregation “grow” – in numbers.

I’ve never thought that coddling was religion’s role.  I’m extremely wary of religion dictating the answers . .    Still, I’ve always thought the work of religion is tackling tough questions to which we seek answers. “Seeking”— Did I use to think my own congregation had a good quotient of “seekers”?  Our church’s history is resplendent with notables who didn’t hew to conventionality and valued exploration and curiosity.

What does this conflict avoidance mean?  Does it mean that congregation members talking to each other about the wrong topics has to be avoided?  Indeed, maybe so– At least don’t facilitate such discussions.

Even a topic such as the social injustice of censorship and the suppression of free speech may need to be avoided. . . because of where it might lead?  So many social justice issues may have to be avoided, because they might be difficult; so let’s only discuss the few justice issues that everyone can safely agree about, which means perhaps those “issues” don’t really need to be thought about, or discussed much at all. . . . unless you are taking time out to pat yourself on the back.

It generally means don’t rock the boat for powerful interests.

And if discussion of issues that might induce conflict ought to be avoided by the congregants . . . if those exchanges of information and viewpoint amongst congregants can, in fact, be avoided. .

. .  Sermons can be delivered into the resulting void that more adroitly and expertly sidestep the awkward.

There can be soothing sermons that purport to discuss the meaning of life, morality, and/or good and evil, while skirting big issues profoundly affecting most all of us.  Sermons that can skip over our connections to many serious things going on in the world even as those things are life and death issues for the less fortunate.

The hole in what doesn’t get sermonized about might lead to a certain blandness.  Am I a crank to suggest it exalts moral flabbiness?  If we aren’t wrestling with the difficult, is it easier to not stumble in concluding that we are “Okay” moral beings?  MSNBC, to name just one network, similarly never upsets the apple cart for powerful interests– and it is also good at avoiding many significant topics while sending its audience away convinced that they are endowed with a certain righteousness.

I am getting too contentious and I digress too far.  The point is that I worry that as a general populace we are losing our ability to exchange ideas, to grow and learn by listening to each other.  That leaves the lane wide open for our heads to be filled by the noise of the self-serving, harmful nonsense the corporately owned media continually pumps out.  And the powers that be drive home the same messages of how we should shape out ideas via many other channels as well.

If the populace is infantilized into incapacity, then those in power have no problem paternalistically stepping in to tell us what to think.

Maybe part of the growth, potential adulthood involved in learning from one another, involves evolution where we might change our minds or develop thinking that’s more nuanced and complex?

`Changing one’s mind’?: I am not sure whether that is necessarily regarded as either a good or a bad thing these days. . I mean in terms of the off-limits lists.

. . . Recently, I had a long conversation at a wedding with a fellow guest who told that me that a certain prominent individual in the news these days was “crazy” and–  worst part– notoriously never changes his mind, no matter that facts.  When I walked into the Montauk Club’s room for Taibbi’s Town Hall, I found myself almost instantly involved with an individual, somebody there on the side of free speech, who told me that this exact same well known individual was “crazy” and not to be taken seriously, because we was “always changing his mind” so you could never know what that individual thinks.

Personal confession: While I may hope that my principles aren't wavering hypocritically, there are important issues where my thinking has changed in some major ways.

I am obviously not leaving you guessing: I am the side of conversing with people.  Yes, whether or not they agree with me.  The buttons I choose to wear announce my availability for such conversations. As you might have been able to easily tell from what I’ve written here, they lead me into a lot of great and very interesting conversations.

Are you impatient with views that disagree with your own?  Is it distressing when you get angry because others are disagreeing with you, or because others are angry with you because you disagree with them?  I have friends who are tired of the headwinds they encounter respecting what they think are clearly mass delusions.  They find themselves deciding to give up on talking to those who think differently.

It’s oversimplifying and far from the entire answer, but patience is a virtue.  And you don’t have to get angry even when someone is angry with you for disagreeing with them. . .  Ask people why they hold the opinions they hold!  They might surprise you with some interestingly valid answers.  Or they might surprise themselves realizing that they don’t really know exactly why they have decided to think what they told you they think.

Among others, I wear “Don’t Sell Our Libraries” buttons, which I’ve been regularly wearing for a long time.  The beauty of those buttons is that almost everybody agrees with those buttons—   It’s just that they often don’t know about the sale of New York City’s libraries.- Because that’s one more thing the corporate press avoids covering.

I’ve been wearing a “Your Government is Lying to You” button.  It can startle people, maybe generate a chuckle, maybe a nervous one reflecting some unease about its implications.  They might be unsettled about how to direct some possible anger.  Nevertheless, most people find they can’t disagree with that button.    

The buttons I choose are for getting into the conversations we are being trained not to have.

It seems to me that one of the best indicators of exactly what’s most important to talk about is what gets designating as off limits topics and what gets subjected to the most vigorous censorship.  There is, of course, censorship that's straight out and vanilla in nature.  There is also a greater range of what gets done to silence voices.  What gets done includes silencing journalists: We can algorithmically suppress them; we can fire people, deplatform them; we cut them off from collecting funds; we can even imprison them, in some cases murder them; we can target them for execution, sometimes the executions can involve significant numbers of journalists; and, most awful, their family members may be targeted too. . .

These are signals which should tell us to pay attention. . . and where to direct out attention.

I am not going to get specific about the buttons that I’ve been wearing that are most likely to provoke disagreement.  That’s again, for the purpose of keeping this abstract for a focus on principle, but those buttons present subjects that have been made controversial largely because the establishment can be so desperately energetic when trying to keep certain viewpoints down to a minority.

I will, nonetheless, specifically mention that I’ve been wearing “Peace” buttons.  (Brooklyn For Peace is a good source of them.)   One might hope “peace” wouldn’t be controversial, but recently, I’ve found it important to include more “Peace” buttons amongst those I’ve been wearing.  It’s odd, but “Peace” buttons are escalating into the most controversial of the conversation starting buttons one can wear.

People, no doubt, are often ready to think that “peace,” abstractly speaking, is a good thing.  At the same time they can fret that “peace” can be a problem when if you might be opposed this or that particular new war.  Why?  Because inevitably, our government promotes our current wars as necessary and good.  And, inevitably, it can take time for a lot of us to catch on our government’s latest lies.

We may sing about “peace,” during the holiday season, but please let us shun the idea of talking about particular wars that need to be ended to bring peace about.

I’ll end by reiterating the question I started with: Does it seem that our list of things we are not supposed to talk about is growing ever longer?

Hmm, if so, are we, through self-censorship, handing over the formulation and structuring of our narratives to others?

Saturday, April 1, 2023

Amy Goodman, of Democracy Now, And Rachel Maddow, of MSNBC’s The Rachel Maddow Show, In Talks About Merging Their Broadcasts

Amy Goodman left, Rachel Maddow right

It’s not like `continental drift’ although there is a `drift’ to be gotten, . . . and it is drift on a truly monumental scale.  People talk about `watching grass grow’ or ‘watching paint dry’ when they talk about things happening slowly so as to go unnoticed.  `A watched pot doesn’t boil,’ but when your tea kettle starts whistling, you know that something’s happened.
These are the words of Democracy Now’s Amy Goodman letting the cat out of the bag about her talks with Rachel Maddow about merging their shows based on the things they increasingly have more in common.  Goodman seems very happy to be the one giving the exclusive `cat out of the bag’- or is it `trial balloon’?- interview.

“Look,” says Goodman, “change is part of life.”  Goodman seems more relaxed than usual, as though allowing herself to wax philosophically this way is allowing her to speak her thoughts more truthfully in a liberating way.  She continues:
Yes, change is part of life.  It was when Rachel was doing Air America radio with Al Franken as a “left–wing,” albeit poorly funded, counter to the likes of Rush Limbaugh, that people got to know who she is.  That was then. [2004] Now she, like us, has regular headlines that track well with the lead you can get from the New York Times.  Rachel, us, and also pretty dependably the New York Times, we’re true blue behind the powerful narratives of the Democratic Party. When I say that those narratives are powerful, I don’t mean that they are inspiring or attuned to the populace, or to the directions for leadership our populace may yearn and hunger for, what I mean is the power of Democratic party coming from the corporations that the party aligns with and, of course, coming from Wall Street.  It’s those alignments that give the selective narratives of the party extraordinary force as they are deployed and can be insisted on.  And I am very happy about the whole identity politics thing.
If, with some migration of platforms, Democracy Now and the Maddow show are going to merge, the reason for their discussion of the possibility is the growing commonality of themes.

Goodman points out that the nation’s had an era where the awfulness of Donald Trump made it easy to find common ground, “I mean Donald Trump’s awfulness was so important, that you didn’t need to pay attention to really anything else.”  And, she points out there have been a lot of things tying into Donald Trump’s awfulness that were consequently easy to agree on: Russiagate and the way that Russians are nefariously interfering to make this country worse and make Trump more dangerous, January 6th and the way we have to stop insurrectionists from taking away our democracy, which we are realizing really needs to be revered (“January 6th sort of taught me that word `insurrectionist’ and got me thinking about it, before then I doubt I’d thought to know what it meant– did you know it’s right out of the constitution?- Though no law under it yet”- interjects Goodman parenthetically), the way we have to censor hate speech (including anything an insurrectionist or any of those election deniers might have to say, and then there’s need to regulate speech in our social media Town Squares so that people don’t get depressed by conversational downers.

Goodman sips her green tea and goes on: “Rachel is very much against hate speech,” she says, “she’s a firm counter the bad kind of hate speech we both deplore.”  Blowing on her tea, she continues:
We are also aligned by being both on the right side of those divisive cultural issues that the Trump presidency made even easier to checklist for future segment coverage.  Thank God Trump changed his position on abortion, thankfully 180 degrees, before taking on his role as a supremely obnoxious president, otherwise it could have been confusing!

We were also both perfectly aligned on the Covid narrative thing: "Wear a mask, wear two masks," we told our Democracy Now audience, "it’s an act of love.'  (We didn’t get to adding the eye visor thing, but thought about it.- Oh maybe we did)  While Rachel was beautifully firm and emphatic: "Now we know that the vaccines work well enough that the virus stops with every vaccinated person."!

The whole Covid thing, the crazy need for lock-downs meant there were a lot of fearful things, numbers and statistics to tumble out before the public in a stream; for a while Democracy Now even changed its mantra slogan from "the war and peace report? to the "quarantine report."  When it comes to history and wars waged, history, when it doesn’t repeat itself, at least rhymes.

But that Covid fear and what to do about it, that’s another thing where we both agreed about how important it was to be saying the right thing and make sure that people were not allowed to say the wrong thing– That Joe Rogan! Talk about people who need to be stopped in their tracks with a dose of good old healthy censorship and centrally managed social opprobrium- Imagine saying good things about the `horse paste’ Ivermectin,

 Mentioning Rogan and Ivermectin Goodman wrinkles her nose in disgust.


“We still have significant differences, Rachel’s show and mine”
says Goodman, “so I don’t know where that takes us.”

She mulls:
Rachel is more provincial, addressing herself more specifically to what riles Americans living locally in this country, more specifically, her kind of Americans.  Democracy Now has an increasingly worldwide audience and worldwide sensibility, for instance, Rachel hasn’t caught up to match me with things like my guttural pronunciations, like when I say“Afghanistan,” or introduce my co-host Nermeen Shaikh.  It just isn’t her style, and we can’t expect it.

But Democracy Now can’t leave its worldwide audience behind it.  If this thing is going to happen, we have to take that worldwide audience along with us in the merger.  We at Democracy Now, also spend more time feeling for the victims in this world, which is not exactly the way Rachel likes to keep the energy up, especially when those victims come from far-flung places in the world that Americans have rarely heard of.  When the time comes, we at Democracy Now are better positioned to do truly convincing ‘worthy victim’ stories.

Some things are going to be very problematic.  Democracy Now was originated out of, was incubated out of WBAI, out of the Pacific network of station.  We are still carried on that family of stations, still with a reasonably hefty listenership.  We’ve established ourselves and Pacifica has cast its lot reporting, with a fair amount of honesty, about the Israeli state’s vile and horrendous treatment of Palestinians.  That honesty, on our part and many other Pacifica carried programs, has been determinative in the loss of a certain appreciable amount of funding for Pacifica.  Unlike perhaps some other things, that’s something where we can’t now leave our audience behind by backtracking or denying our core DNA. . .

    . .  But you can imagine what a problem this would be for Rachel.  Even if our meld is only accomplished by doing back-to-back shows that could be a toxic proximity for her.  The solution, if the time comes, may be to take our cue from her.  She deep-sixes those kinds of stories and that kind of reporting.  So you also don’t hear anything about our U.S. Saudi Yemen war from her.— Out of sight is out of mind.  What we could do, and might do, is just move all of out Israel/Palestine reporting and coverage to our web edition special section.  There it would be invisible to the kind of audience that never looks for that kind of thing and justifiably still there for the kind of audience that still does.  You know we are all in our individual bubbles these days.  So you always have to remember to think in those terms.
It causes Goodman to sigh.
But merging these shows is meant to take us counter to that bubble thing.  Instead of isolating bubble thinking, we’ll have more people thinking the same things when we get our shows together.  But we can’t move too fast.  Our audience has to move with us.  We do polling and focus groups to make sure we don’t get too far out in front of them.  We are alert for feedback.  And, for instance, at Democracy Now we’ve recently had to go back and do some stories to illustrate that we are still anti-war and ant-US imperialism, like what’s expected of us from our past.   Like, for instance, with that particular segment of the audience that still listens to us on Pacifica stations, those we haven’t yet pulled away to listen to us just through the disintermediation of our multiple internet platforms, it can a bit jarring right now if our content is too different from other Pacifica shows.

We want to be on the same page with Rachel and crew about things like the Ukraine war
, [Goodman catches herself and doubles back]. .  The `Russian provoked’ Ukraine war, [she emphasizes], but our audience can get a little unnerved by the idea we are on the brink of possible nuclear annihilation of the world and wonder if we really are still sincerely for peace enough if we are to expect them to keep following us where we go. An easy way to offer reassurance, like we just did, is to use the 20th anniversary of the Iraq war, ahem, U.S. invasion of Iraq, and reiterate where we stood on that twenty years ago.  The past is a place where you can anchor the trust you hope to keep getting  in the future.  So people will keep following into whatever Heraclitian storms may toss us on the waves in that future.

Look, I believe that `in solidarity there is strength.’  For progressivism to win, we have to be rowing in the same direction.  When we marched into wars, the Democrats were once thought of as the anti-war party.  Now we have two war parties, but it’s clear that the Democrats are now taking the lead.  The Republicans have a few isolationists who are against our bringing democracy-enhancing regime change to other countries. . .  The name of our show is Democracy Now, something to remember, when we try to keep our bearings.
The interview can’t end without posing one obvious question: Why not PBS or NPR instead?  Goodman smiles, shaking her head as if disappointed with the quality or lack of perspicacity of such a question, even if it might be obligatory and expected as inevitable.  Goodman speaks slowly and deliberately:
Merging our audience with PBS or NPR wouldn’t be any kind of achievement.  PBS and NPR are already where Rachel and her show are, which is to say, aligned with The Washington Post and New York Times, but PBS and NPR are selling the audience the idea that they are the thinking man’s version and the cultured man’s of media consumption.  That pose already successfully siphons audience, say from Pacifica, when the audience is looking for better production values along not so obvious and time-consuming commercials that you get with `commercial’ broadcasts.  But sliding over there wouldn’t be an achievement.  Because it’s sort of contrary to their brand, PBS and NPR don’t fish for audience indignation, including the Red Team, Blue Team variety of indignation, the way that Rachel and I do,– not so overtly–  Rachel does it with her raised-to-the-sky eyebrow and cocked neck, while I put it in my voice.  I can do it with slight variations in my tone and I also pick words to drawl out more slowly.  Moreover, we at Democracy Now do subtle, not quite subliminal, editorializing with our interspersed music segments, something Rachel doesn’t do.  Bringing our audience to MSNBC with skillful drifting would be a much more real achievement.      
One last question to Goodman (but is it too rude?): And the true “achievement” to be aspired to might also be inextricably associated with handsome recompense?— Doesn’t Rachel Maddow get paid something like $30 million a year counting salary and regular bonuses?  Goodman simply smiles.

Democracy Now and The Rachel Maddow Show are not merging broadcasts just yet.  This April 1st interview with Goodman was just to preview how it’s being talked about.  Goodman was specific that if it happens it could be a year from now, say next April 1st, or two years from now on the April 1st after that.